Ashly Williams (00:00.078)
Everyone has a story, right? And everyone's at a different place along their journey. I know that I've been given a lot of grace in my life in terms of the evolution of that growth and coming to who I am and allowing...the world and experiences and the people around me to shape the direction of that and who, you know, where I grow into and who I become. And I think out of my own experience, right, that is something that helps me because I always want to extend that to other people. You know, having been a person that was very isolated from the world, from other people, it gives me a piece of strength, right? You don't see a lot of white women, you know, who are one white person among all black people.

Jessica Grossman (01:02.286)
Hey podcast fam, it's your go to leadership team coach and host, Jessy here and I'm ready to shake things up. If you're also tired of outdated forms of authority and ready to rebel against the mediocrity of leadership we see today, you might've just found your spot. So join me in unleashing this next generation of leaders by embracing being just a bit too millennial. Let's redefine this thing together.

Jessica Grossman (01:38.126)
Welcome to the episode six of Two Millennial. Can you believe it? We've reached the midpoint of season one and to celebrate, we have an extraordinary guest with us today, Ashly Williams. Ashly is one of the most bada** HR organizational development leaders in the industry, period. And Ashly and I have a...

Let's be honest, our families pretty much despised each other. And then as I moved into adulthood and I started in my master's program through Instagram, she kind of started to interact with me. And so after the murder of George Floyd, Ashly took to Instagram and really started to break down some of the systematic disparities and racism that she's seen in her life. And it's specifically from this white perspective. Her insights resonated deeply with me. And I think there was this level of respect at that point after some of these interactions we had. And so at this time I was also grappling with my own understanding of whiteness. And I kind of recognized at this point that racism was embedded in how I moved through the world. And to a degree there was, I would say, a little sense of shame. I thought I was a good person. So why did, say, walking past a black person bring almost this uncomfortable physiological reaction that I, to be honest, I didn't want to feel that, but I did. I carried that. So there was this like idea of maybe that was a bad feeling to me. And seeing Ashly come on Instagram and talk about things in the way she's able to articulate it, her own experience really validated some of this response for me. Like it helped me confront some of that because she shared some of that.

And so I really felt like, wow, not I'm bad, but this shows how deep society impacts us. This shows how deep it is. And it became data to me on how deep this impacts us. And this helped me accept some of that racism in a less personal way, which let me held space to actually see more of it, to talk more about it. And...

Jessica Grossman (03:58.542)
As much as I'm a well -intended white woman, I have in my life brought certain harm in my actions. In order to interrupt this harm rather than denying it, Ashly Williams helped me accept that it's a part of our experience due to societal constraints. You probably as a leader, you're like, why does this matter to me? I actually invited Ashly Williams here to discuss DEI due to all the reasons I just explained and the impact she's had on me.

I call it DEI, she calls it EDI. The E stands for equity, the D stands for diversity, the I stands for inclusion. And then there's obviously this focus of belonging as well. And so I invite her to talk about this due to her influence on me. And then as we were going through the interview, things kept surprising me in her responses. She seems to kind of seamlessly weave together these personal experiences and personal stories. how these things impact us individually. But then she also moves to this kind of macro view of systematic oppression and then zooms back in on the kind of these micro dynamics of high performing teams. And initially I was like thrown off a little bit, but upon reflection, it became very clear that this is masterfully done because EDI or DEI is really intertwined with everything we do. Like it cannot stand on its own. It needs to be integrated. And,

That's the way we make meaningful change. And we can't have a meaningful conversation without considering it at an individual level, a team level, and then at a community or a societal level. I mean, as leaders, we often think of EDI as like this thing over here. It's separate from our day to day and how we drive things at tasks. And I think Ashley really shows how it's all connected. And that EDI impacts, positively on our performance. And I'm a firm believer and actually the research backs this up. Well, as long as there's an open environment, but the research backs up that diverse teams are more effective, bringing together different ways of thinking, skills and experiences fosters innovation and adaptability. And then if we think about it a different way, like, are we really going to argue against the value of making team members feel included and that they feel like they should belong?

Jessica Grossman (06:24.718)
I do want to point out here and Ashly Williams brings it up too that a key factor to these is this idea of psychological safety, which is an Amy Edmondson concept. I know I've brought her up in other interviews, but psychological safety, I want to make sure we're clear on the definition is really this belief that one can speak up without the fear of punishment or humiliation. And actually, according to Google's research, psychological safety is the most critical factor in creating high performance teams.

So before we dive into the conversation with Ashly, I wanna give you all a quick heads up. I will be taking a mid -season break here. I'll be back in August with more fantastic guests. I know you're probably all gonna miss me so much. And if you do, you can catch up on all the great content on my Instagram page @CoachJessyGrossman. And so I bring you this episode on belonging, high impact teams and everything in between.

Welcome to the podcast, Ashly.

Ashly Williams
Thank you. Yeah. Thanks for having me. I'm looking forward to our talk. So for those who don't know you, you know, give us a brief introduction. My name's Ashley Williams. I'm originally from Chicago. I live out here in California now. I've been doing HR work for about 15 years, but my real passion, the thing that kind of started me out down the path of HR is my passion for EDI work. I have a master's in industrial organizational psychology, where I focused on diversity issues through that lens. But I like the broader conversation of diversity as well. Meaning, you know, how do different people with different strengths and thought processes and upbringings and worldviews come together and create synergies in order to create really high performing team. And I think it starts foundationally with this idea of feeling a sense of belonging or inclusion to where people can be them, their authentic selves and really embrace and live into those strengths in order to get to a place where you can find those synergies between people, right? If there's not psychological safety in an organization, then it's really hard for people to be their authentic selves, bring their full selves, bring all of their strengths and find those synergies to create high performing teams. So I've spent a lot of my career kind of focused on that and working with people, trying to constantly understand people. I like to say people will people. You know, people are people and it's always something new and different. And what have you learned in this process? my gosh. I've learned so much. You know, I think I've been called a social justice warrior. you know, I have some pretty radical, I guess people, people call it radical. I don't radical, you know, but.

I have some pretty radical worldviews, my thoughts around race and gender and some of these different marginalized communities. And one thing that's been really interesting to me, because I grew up in a very wealthy white community and it was really kind of like a, a West side story kind of thing because, you know, I was a troubled teen. Jessy probably remembers, had a lot of challenges with my family. And I found myself living in all black communities and having some experiences. I lived in Cincinnati from 99 to 2001. And if anybody remembers, this is a long time ago, maybe for some of your listeners, but they had race riots.

And that was an experience that really, I think, shaped me in some of my worldview. Right. And so that has also led to me being a member of the NAACP, getting very involved in activist types of organizations. And I think one of the things at this old age of mine now, that I'm realizing is that my kind of like Malcolm X mindset, I've had enough experience now inside of organizations to realize that there's really this Martin approach that needs to happen. And as much as I'd like to come in there with my, you know, militant radical beliefs and, you know, kind of push those onto people and, you know, say the right words and change people's minds. that is just not realistic when we're talking about inclusion and belonging and the true continuum and diversity of people and worldviews and thought processes and upbringing. So I would say that, you know, the last few years, something I'm really learning is, you know, what does that look like? What really works when we're, we're talking about people, people.

Jessica Grossman
I mean, I think me and you struggle with that a little bit. Refinement is not our strength. We want to go in there like that competitive, like intense personality.

Ashly Williamsn
I think we kind of share that. It's one of my Clifton strengths is competition. It's my number one. How do I use that strength? But in a way where it's directed that I want to compete with you in a way that makes you better. And I want you to reciprocate that competition with me in a way that makes me better because we're better together. And I see so much unhealthy competition in the world and a lot of it is the dynamics of these power structures. Right? You know, you think about marginalized communities, there's often this perception that it's a zero sum game. There's only so many spots for women.

There's only so many spots for black people. There's only right at the top. And so in order to get there, I have to tear you down in order to get ahead. And that is something that we're indoctrinated with in terms of the social construction of gender, of race. And, you know, when you start to deconstruct those things, it's also just our society, right? Our society capitalism, that is all about competition, who's going to be the best, which business is going to be the best. And if we really want to be conscious people, we have to look at those things and start to deconstruct them before we can really envision something different. And, you know, that's something I'm really learning that, you know, there's a way to be competitive that is supportive, that builds high performing teams.

And that doesn't play into this zero sum mindset. I can't tell you how many times I've been inside organizations where you have some really, really smart people and they have forgotten that the competition is out there and they've started to compete with each other. this person's incompetent. this person doesn't know what they're doing. this whole department is not doing the right thing.

And it's this place of judgment instead of this place of, I want our team to be the best. And it takes every single individual on this team working together to find those synergies to create a high performing teams. But we seem to stay focused on non -growth mindset sometimes. Like that's just how they are. They're just incompetent. That's like a finality. And it doesn't allow for that evolution over time that I know has happened in my life.

Jessica Grossman
Something that came to my mind when you're talking about this is this idea of competition versus comparison. I think that a lot of times when we think we're in competition and it's making us better, in reality, it's egoic and that we can only feel good when someone else is doing bad. I fall into that category and it's something that I work all day long on it, which is how do you just intrinsically feel good about yourself without having it to be in comparison to what other people are doing? And that's really hard for me. And I think on teams, it's like, well, if everyone on the team is really good, then I'm not special. It's this like need to belong, but feel special. I think a lot of times our incentive systems tend to...

Jessica Grossman (15:53.966)
like, you know, only one person can get the promotion and then we wonder why people are, you know, cutting each other down. Well, incentives are off. At this moment, it feels as though we're moving backwards a bit when it comes to DEI or you said EDI. What are you seeing with these new narratives that are popping up and what are your thoughts around it?

Ashly Williams
Maybe it's an unpopular belief. I'll tell, I'll tell a different story. We can get political, right? I will never forget, I'm married to a black man. I'll never forget when President Obama was running for office and my husband and I went to vote and you know, he had this moment where he was just saying, man, you know, this is such a important moment in my life. I certainly appreciated that and took a moment to acknowledge that. And, and then I said to him, I want you to also just be kind of prepared that I don't think our country's ready for this. And he's like, well, what do you mean by that? And I'm like, well, I think our, the black people in this country have been ready for this.

But I think that there's a larger part of the population that may not be ready. And if you kind of look at what's transpired, I feel like there was a lot of backlash when President Obama did become president and he was elected. And I liken that to be kind of similar, but on a new scale to what we're kind of seeing you know, since George Floyd, right? I remember when George Floyd was murdered, and that time period, I'm glad that social media and the access to information through technology is really putting the spotlight on some of these things. These are things that I've been aware of long before that, just having lived in black communities and watching the movement of police through communities and watching disparate treatment and racism. And so I definitely acknowledge like, hey, I'm grateful that more people are now, their interest has peaked, they're looking at this, but we need to make sure that this isn't just a moment in time.

And so when we talk about, hey, is it kind of losing some steam, right? A lot of corporations that put a lot of money behind EDI at that time are kind of pulling back and reducing these things. And, you know, that was kind of what I feared. And that's because it's truly systemic. We are all living inside of a system an ecosystem, much like I was talking about earlier, the evolution of people and experiences that helped to shape our worldview and who we are. And unfortunately, the backlash that we're seeing is kind of a byproduct of all of that. You think about how polarized our country is right now, not only in the geopolitical sense, but you see it showing up in organizational life as well. I had rolled out a diversity program long before 2020 at my organization. People were very supportive. They loved some of the things that we were doing. We were highlighting different people, trying to make different employees feel special by recognizing them, by seeing them, and trying to create a space where they could be their authentic selves. When 2020 happened, now some of these same people that were really excited about what we were doing and were really on board.

They had a problem with it now.

Jessica Grossman (20:23.758)
Hmm. That's amazing. And, you know, I would have thought they'd been like, look, we're already doing it. You know? Look at us for a hundred times. There is a lot of fear that starts coming up when we start talking about these things. And it's mostly with white people.

Ashly Williams
You know, you want to call it white fragility. There's a number of different factors that play into it. But again, if we create more space for black people in organizational life and we don't continue to hold them down with oppressive systems of, you know, the industrial prison complex or, you know, the way that police do their work, then what happens to me? especially if I am sitting in this position of power. And I'm not saying these are conscious thoughts that happen for people. This is really our subconscious mind. And this also plays into this Malcolm Martin approach that I've really been thinking through in my life because one of the things when I was doing my master's thesis that

I was really focused on is there's some psychological principles that talk about how most people believe themselves to be good people. What happens is because we do learn, we are indoctrinated that racism is bad. People who are racist, they're bad people. And so when there's language or when there are things that happen in the world, that come into conflict with that belief that I'm a good person and make me feel like if you call me or suggest to me that I'm a racist, I know that racism and people who are racist are bad. That comes into conflict with this idea that I am a good person and I have cognitive dissonance now. And so the reaction or the result is now I feel that I have to defend myself. I have to dig my heels in.

And a lot of times that looks like some of the backlash that we're seeing. We don't want this woke shit. So you think it was like when at first you were doing it, they were just seeing it as like recognition and learning. And then all of a sudden they, when they started seeing it and almost they had this like physiological response, like I'm being attacked. That's exactly what I'm suggesting. And what I learned through that experience, the way that I got people back on board with it was taking more of a Martin approach. And we started talking about belonging. Because when you even say the word, diversity, equity, inclusion, those are really coded words, right? As much as we're indoctrinated with ideas about, you know, race or gender, we're also indoctrinated or words become very coded. Language really matters. When we started talking about belonging, that was something that was neutral enough of a word that it didn't evoke that visceral physical reaction that you were describing. That was something that everybody could relate to. Everybody wants to feel like they belong. Does it get us to the same end goal? Well, it certainly moves us in that direction.

Because what happens when you use the word diversity or equity or any of these words that are very coded is you're actually a lot of times creating division because you get that backlash from a segment of the population or from a segment of the organization that then is working to sabotage the efforts of making progress. If you're willing to.

Say I still have this same goal that I want to help people to make progress in terms of ultimately EDI, but I want to use language that doesn't put people on the defense, that doesn't make people feel attacked. But it all gets us towards the space where we are going to value every single individual and we are going to allow them to be themselves and we are going to help them to also, what you mentioned earlier, feel special for just being who they are, then you can really get to a lot of the things that you ultimately want when you're using more coded language or a more militant approach.

Jessica Grossman (25:08.878)
I mean, I'm a millennial, so I want to feel special all the time.

Ashly Williams
And I think we all do. I think that that's just honest.

Jessica Grossman
What are some of the red flags? I don't know if that's the right word. What are some of the red flags when it comes to organizations not creating a culture of belonging?

Ashly Williamsn
The biggest thing is the level at the organization of people's ability to appropriately deliver and receive feedback. Hmm. I never thought of that one. For this type of work. I mean, we work on that with like leadership and learning. I didn't think about it in regards to EDI or DEI. There are people who it is so hard for them to hear feedback, right? And it does bring up kind of this defensiveness, right? Like in an insecurity about the things we, I mean, in organizations, it's easy to get everybody to agree. We all have things to work on. Almost everybody will agree to that. But when we talk about something that you may have an opportunity with, like, how do you respond? That really measures the level of psychological safety. But it also, to me, feedback equals growth.

If people are to grow and move forward and help to create a culture and an environment where there is psychological safety and where there is belonging, then we have to get comfortable with feedback because that's par for the course. And then I would say helping people and an organization to adopt a learning mindset. That allows us to take on a persistence about where we're going. Right.

Jessy, I know you know this, you've done a lot of this with your consulting work. Organizational change and culture is hard. It's messy and it takes a really long time. So you have to get people on board with this idea of, Hey, we understand where we're trying to go and we don't exactly know how to get there, but we are going to be open and willing to try some things and
then look at them and say, how did that work? And there's going to be times where it's like, that didn't work. But we're not going to stay stuck in that or beat one another up. We're going to say, okay, it didn't work. That's a great learning opportunity for us. What can we learn from why that didn't work that helps inform whatever we try next? And then we have that persistence that it takes along that path, along that evolution to stay in the fight, to stay in the game.

Jessica Grossman
One of the things I've seen stop people from thinking and taking action from a progressive growth mindset is this idea that we don't really know what a culture looks like when we get one of the things I've seen stop people from thinking and taking action from a progressive growth mindset is this idea that we can't envision the future state. So for example, I was on a board and I was saying, I want to be the most progressive board that there is, that no one's ever done before. So we're trying to do something that doesn't exist. There's no model for us. That was really hard for people because they're saying, but I don't know what that looks like. Tell me what it looks like and I'm sitting here saying, it's not been done so we don't know.

Yeah. But I think of you as a visionary. What are the things, what are your hopes and visions for this next generation?

Ashly Williamsn
I love what you said. but I can only imagine what the other board members felt when you said that because we're so uncomfortable with ambiguity. So is there an end goal? To your point, you know, you can't, you can't envision what it would look like to be in a spot different than where you are. But to have the courage to want to move in that direction and have new experiences as you go that evolve you as an individual, evolve the organization. But I just don't think there's like an end goal that people, but people want that there's security in that, that feels good. Okay. We'll know that we have arrived when we get here. Right. Well, what happens when you get there, then you stop. It goes back to that growth mindset. What would I like to see ideally? Are we talking about realistically or I told you, I mean, I still am, I still am pretty Malcolm X, you know, Angela Davis about things but I think realistically, you know, what I would like to see is the evolution about how we think about work. You know, I think there's a lot of old adages that we've inherited from baby boomers, Gen X generation that are still living inside organizations. things like leave your problems at the door, put your head down and work. That's how you get ahead. you know your value to the organization is if you hold on to all of this knowledge and you are a single point of failure and the only person who can actually do your job. And so they need you. Right. And so re -imagining and re -envisioning work that takes a totally different look at, you know, how people actually are. Right We are emotional. Life happens and it's very unrealistic to ask somebody to come in and put their head down and work. We need to learn how to be empathetic, accommodating, understanding, and more trusting. How do I get comfortable with sharing my knowledge, sharing my skills, sharing my information with other people inside of an organization and not feel threatened by that. One of the things I've always said is I love to hire people that are way smarter than me and way more talented than me. So many people are afraid of that because of that competition mindset, right?

Jessica Grossman
and me included. I mean, as much as I say that, intellectually, I know that's how you're supposed to do, but it's still hard. Yeah. Because you know, we've all been taught that you're only as good as the answer you can give to the world. And if you have no answer, it feels very hard to understand and wrap your head around your value. Yeah. I mean, I think we need to do a part two just on letting go of the egoic self.

Ashly Williamsn
my gosh. No kidding. It is. And I, you know, your honesty is so refreshing because it's, it's not easy. And I think it goes back to wanting to feel special. First have to have the courage to do that You know, to say, okay, this is scary because maybe I won't be special if I hire somebody smarter and more talented than me, but I'm going to have the courage to do it anyway, because I can recognize, like you said, you know, intellectually that that's the right thing. And then you do that. And then it's about recognizing that that in and of itself makes you special because most people can't do that. And, you know, one of the things that I've learned is, Hey, that makes me really valuable to an organization because I can find really smart, talented people and bring them onto a team that's valued in HR. But at, you know, even at the manager level, I can, I can build a team of really smart and talented people. I mean, that's what every leader should be aiming for because as a leader. We should be evaluated not on our own individual work, but our ability to lead a team of people who are doing great work. But, you know, it takes some experience.

Jessica Grossman (34:20.75)
Yeah, I think it's a really important distinction to make. I think that our whole lives, we are taught that we are valuable by having the right answer. We're taught we're valuable through our expertise and our knowledge. And then when you become a leader, That's just not enough. because at the end of the day, it's about how do you leverage talent? How do you design tasks and design projects that leverages talent and that motivates a team and you standing there as an expert is not going to motivate your team. It's not going to make your team better. You knowing who has the right expertise in the right places and how you use that in the right situations. Like that's more going to make you a better leader. You understanding how to read the room, you understanding how to effectively navigate dialogue, how to make things more explicit for the team, how to communicate, you know, impact. And those are the things that make you successful and not your expertise. But no one's ever taught us that that's important.

Ashly Williams
Yeah, absolutely. And I think one thing that I just want to point out, everything that we've just been talking about, I think you said it really well about, you know, what we've learned and what really makes somebody a good leader. Everything that we've talked about, you know, we didn't at one point use the word diversity or equity or inclusion. True. We didn't use any of that. That's such an important point we just made to hear, to listen to that. We didn't use any of that coded language, but what is the byproduct of not feeling threatened by somebody else who's smart and talented? If I can really get comfortable with that, I'm not going to be having the backlash and digging my feet in, you know, when I feel like my power is being threatened.

Jessica Grossman (36:17.262)

Wow. That's, that's, I'm gonna have to sit with that. I think it's a really powerful point.

Ashly Williams
When we talk about reimagining the workplace and having it be a space where it's not about ego, it's truly about being humble enough to recognize other people's strengths, other people's talents and not feel threatened by them. That helps us make progress with EDI.

Jessica Grossman
You know, I invited you to come here and to talk about belonging or EDI. And at the end of the day, we're just talking about, you know, being better people, growing, learning. And those are really the core components of high performance. So if we want to get better, And if we want to have a more, a culture of belonging, those two things go hand in hand. You aren't sacrificing anything for belonging. In reality, you are making the workplace more effective.

Ashly Williamsn
There's a lot of fear, right? Because if we rolled the tape back and just had that whole conversation again, but we use words like, we want to create an equitable space where… Everyone has equal opportunity to progress and move forward, right? Which is really what we're saying when we say, hey, I don't want to feel threatened by somebody else being smart and being more talented than me. I want them to have the same opportunity. It makes us all better, right? Or equity, giving more people opportunity and access to move ahead makes us better. better, right? But we feel threatened by that and we feel scared of that. There's a great book that talks about this. It's called The Some of Us by Heather McGee. And you know, she's really talking about how much talent in the world have we missed out on? because that person didn't have access or opportunity. And that's true in the world and it's true in organizational life, right? But if we change the language in which we're talking about it so that we can make more people comfortable, then we can get more people on board with moving towards that high performing team. That's something everybody, everybody wants. Nobody's threatened by the idea of a high performing team. Nobody's threatened by the word belonging. But if I say inclusion, if I say equity and opportunity and access for everybody, we just kind of stalled our progress because of that coded language and what it brings up in people.

Jessica Grossman
I think like what I'm thinking about, like how do we move forward in like not whitewashing our language and trying to make everyone super comfortable, but also, using language that helps people get uncomfortable. But how do we do that in like a space that's safer? I don't even know. But it's just, that's what's coming to my mind right now.

Ashly Williams
Yeah, I agree. I mean, absolutely a component of, you know, ultimately where I want to see us go, people are going to have to get real uncomfortable. And there's no way we can even approach that until We've made some progress around creating a space where everyone feels like they belong and they are safe so that when we start to feel uncomfortable, we can come back to the security that comes with feeling a sense of belonging. When you think of a team, like belonging is so like, yeah, of course you have to have belonging to have a high performing team. That's why I like thinking about it from a team perspective, because no one's ever going to say, psychological safety and belonging is bad for a team.

Ashly Williams
So we're going to jump into my segment called Jessy's Jolt of Insight. For people who are over super taping this on a Saturday. So I don't want to take all of Ashley's Saturday up. She's also has a life list three words that would describe your state of mind as a leader right now. Hopeful, steadfast, authentic.

What's your favorite millennial quality about yourself?
Say that there's other generations who might be labeled with this more, but I think it did starts with millennials, but a desire for progress, right? So progressive would be the word.

How would it mean what's your favorite millennial quality about me?
I don't know if this is a millennial quality, but my favorite thing about you is your refreshing honesty.

What's one thing you want to change people's mind about?
Feedback's how we grow.

Ashly Williams
I've known Jesse since we were little kids. And I think we reconnected as adults and found all of these common interests and similar worldviews and similar passions in our work. And that's been really fun and exciting.

Jessica Grossman
weirdly started tearing up when I started thinking about like me and our relationship. For those who don't know Ashley, Ashley was this like incredible tennis player in high school and like this intensity, but so much pressure. And like you said, you were this like troubled teen. And I think what made me tear up was this idea that like you were the person I like wasn't supposed to look up to, right? Like back then, but then now I think about today and the -

people that the person I look up to and I really like admire and it's you, right? And it really like, it makes me tear up because it just shows that, yeah, like, I don't know. People we admire just come in such unique ways to us. And we change so much as people over time. And it's so amazing. Like your troublemaker tendencies is like, I love it.

Ashly Williams
No, thank you so much. I mean, That means a lot to me. It's such a beautiful thing because to reconnect, you know, with you has been really wonderful for me. Feeling such isolation and like such an outsider in my family and to feel like, no, you know, this person who I grew up with, you know, we have these things in common that make me feel a connection and not feel so alone. And gosh, doesn't it feel good to just feel like you can belong and be yourself? And you give that to me. And so I too am really grateful. The only other thing I'd like to say is nothing is more energizing for me than. Being able to talk with like -minded people about something that I'm really passionate about. And it can be really lonely. It can be really isolating. And to know that, you know, there are other people out there fighting the good fight. It creates a sense of belonging. And it helps you to endure in the work. Be kind of refueled in terms of my efforts and to feel really energized in knowing, you know, that we have people out there like you that are doing things like this to make the world a better place and, and grow as an individual as well. Right. So yeah, I just want to thank you for that, Jessy. Well, of course, your way of speaking and way of thinking has really made a big impact on me. And so I thought,

Jessica Grossman
It was critical to bring you on due to the impact that you've had on me and helping me understand my whiteness, my own shame, my own racism in a way that I can do something with it. And I just really appreciate how you can really cut there without creating this defensiveness. You call it Malcolm X, but I was like, yes. It spoke to me. So. don't, don't ever forget that.

Ashly Williams
Well, thank you. I think it's, it's a mutual admiration club. I do recognize as a white woman, you know, that I do not understand the live experience of black people. but I'm raising a little black girl and I want, she's, she's my favorite little black girl and I want the world to be a great place for her. And, I have always felt convicted about, you know using my privilege in order to try to make the world a better place. And I know that my target audience is, you know, working with other white people who are open to it. And it's pretty rare that I've found someone who's really open to it. And again, it's lonely when you're really trying to share, you know, your own experiences or knowledge that you've gained with people who are not open to it and to continue to suit up and do that in the world. And you know, you've been very open and in wanting to seek out some of that stuff. And I think, you know, in that way, we've made one another better. And that's the power of what we were talking about today, right? The openness to hear feedback.
and to deliver feedback in a way that makes us better together. And to me, nothing's more powerful.

Jessica Grossman
To wrap up this episode, I wanted to read a quote that might help you think about how you can put this episode into action in your own life. Quote, the micro reflects the macro and vice versa.

Fibonacci patterns show up from space to cauliflower. The tiniest, most mundane act reflects the biggest creations we can imagine. And this is by Kat Aaron, and it's from the book, Emergent Strategy by Adrienne Marie Brown, who's inspired a lot of the work I do in team effectiveness. So what can we do with this information? The lucky for you all attached to this, you can find in the show notes. I actually have a playbook for how do you give feedback with empathy and love, but also accountability. So check that out and I'll see you all in mid August.

And that's a wrap for today's episode of To Millennial. If you found yourself nodding along, you know the drill. Smash that subscribe button wherever you're tuning in. And if you want a daily dose of leadership wisdom with a sidekick of quirky parent jokes, catch me on Instagram at Coach Jessie Grossman. But hey, if you're serious about leveling up yourself, your team, head over to zlncoaching .com.

Jessica Grossman (48:39.566)
where we have great tools, resources, and case studies that will help you unlock your potential and enhance your team's resilience and performance. Because here's the truth, when we don't invest time in building our own leadership skills and the skills of those around us, problems fester. We feel disconnected and it's just so hard to get work done. So if you need an executive coach, a sounding board, an offsite facilitator, a team consultant, get in touch. Thanks for hanging out with me on Two Millennial.

Until next time, stay curious, stay bold, and keep growing.

Ashly Williamsn
still convince the people that what that action you took or that thing that you said did not make that person belong. You don't have to understand racism. If you're truly committed to belonging, then you don't have to understand why what you said made that person feel like they didn't belong. You just have to know that it did and what to do differently next time. But if we have a shared goal, then we have to be willing to change our behavior. And if you change your behavior, cool, that's all I really care about. I'm not trying to change your mind and become some leftist, militant, Malcolm X, Angela Davis supporter like I am, but you can stop doing harm.

Jessica Grossman
We have to remember, changing people's behavior also changes their mind. So sometimes it's like, it goes both ways. If someone's like doing harm in a group. This behavior is harmful. It's inappropriate. I'm going to hold you accountable for it. And we're not going to have this behavior anymore. But at the end of the day, that could change someone's mind.